Posts by Sea Breeze

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Sea Breeze

I can see why theologians do not like Ezek. 18:4ff. Doesn’t fit their theology at all.

Theologians like all scriptures, they just don't like the heretical definitions and mind games that heretics play with important biblical terms, like "death" for instance.

In the bible, death simply means separation. The soul that sins will die (become separated from it's body.)

This is the biblcal definition of death clearly established in describing Rachael's death in Gen. 35: 18.

When Rachel's soul became separated from her body, she died. The same will happen to each of us when our soul becomes separated from our body. We will die....become separated from out body. We will join the dearly departed.

Repeatedly in the Bible, people are referred to as “souls” (Exodus 31:14; Proverbs 11:30), especially in contexts that focus on the value of human life and personhood or on the concept of a “whole being” (Psalm 16:9-10; Ezekiel 18:4; Acts 2:41; Revelation 18:13).

The human soul seems to be distinct from the heart (Deuteronomy 26:16; 30:6) and the spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 4:12) and the physical mind (Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27). The human soul is created by God (Jeremiah 38:16). It can be strong or unsteady (2 Peter 2:14); it can be lost or saved (James 1:21; Ezekiel 18:4). We know that the human soul needs atonement (Leviticus 17:11) and is the part of us that is purified and protected by the truth and the work of the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:22). Jesus is the great Shepherd of souls (1 Peter 2:25).

Dead souls can remember, speak, have feelings and experience comfort or pain. See Rev. 6: 9-11.

See SOUL in Websters 1828 dictionary.

Also Death in same dictionary:

"In theology, perpetual separation from God, and eternal torments; called the second death"

The idea that theologians "do not like" Ez. 18: 4 is ludicrous and is an easily falsified conclusion.

Thanks for highlighting one of WT's "proof" scriptures on Annihilation.

12

Will the G.B. ever give a "new light" on Romans 6:7?

by BoogerMan in

jehovah' witnesses are taught to believe that romans 6:7 refers to a person's own literal death:.

watchtower may 15th 1982, pp.

8,9 - "the bible explains that at death a person is set free or released from any sins he committed.

Sea Breeze

Thanks for posting that Blondie.

The WT assumes a presupposition that is identical to atheism (materialism) in regards to humanity - the physical you is all there is to "you". This isn't biblical, and is a fairly recent addition to societal consciousness. Pronouns denote personhood and pronouns are used throughout the bible in respect to our soul and also our spirit - the immaterial parts of you. But, all three are you.... as far as the bible is concerned.

Because of that, the WT has to do a "work around" when acknowledging the fact that the death in Romans 6: 7 isn't physical. Oh, it suits their purposes just fine for the R&F to believe that it is... but even an idgit can see from context that the death in Romans 6: 7 isn't physical. So, they use the time honored method of calling something in the bible they don't like - symbolic. Envoking the symbolic card is a lazy man's (or worse) theology.

Biblically, a person (their spirit) literally perishes when they are born again.... which is the ONLY way a person can be a Christian. The sin nature we inheirit cannot be rehabilitated. It must die. When we agree to let that happen, God gives us a spirt that is begotten by God himself. We become his progeny.

But here's the rub: It is only a downpayment (ernest) on the full inheritance when our soul and body is redeemed as well - at the resurrection. In this life, all we get is a new spirit which cannot sin, because it is begotten of God. When we worsip in the spirit, that is acceptable to God. If we do it in the mind (soul) or in the flesh, it is not interacted with by God. God interacts with our new spirit when we are born again. NT believers worship in spirit and truth.

So, the true meaning of Romans 6:7 isn't a symbolic death like WT reluctantly admits. It is a spiritual death of your spirit. So, even though your spirit is barely discernable to most people because we spend most of our life in the flesh, it is enough for God to interact with you as his very own child and redeem your soul and body as well...in due course.

I don't want to sound preachy or like a holy roller, but this is exactly what is going on in Romans 6: 7.

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:
and he [his spirit] cannot sin, because he is born of God". - 1 John 3: 9

12

Will the G.B. ever give a "new light" on Romans 6:7?

by BoogerMan in

jehovah' witnesses are taught to believe that romans 6:7 refers to a person's own literal death:.

watchtower may 15th 1982, pp.

8,9 - "the bible explains that at death a person is set free or released from any sins he committed.

Sea Breeze

@Boogerman

Yes, because of the widespread belief among JW's that when you literally die, "you get a clean slate", I was very surprised to learn that as far back as 1985, the WT stated that the death being spoken of in Romans 6: 7 is symbolic and not literal.

What an excellent article for JW's to read and consider! For example, p. 9 par. 6:
"By his undeserved kindness, Jehovah accepted Jesus’ sacrifice in behalf of Adam’s descendants. It was an equivalent, or corresponding, sacrifice seeing that, as a perfect man, Jesus bought back what the perfect man Adam lost."

Personally, I wouldn't go there. The way WT "explains" Jesus' Ransom sacrifice greatly diminishes the 1 to 1 relationship that Jesus has with the believer. Simply put - In Adam we inherit sin and death. In Jesus we inherit righteousness and unending life for our body, soul, and spirit.

This is the exchange offered in the NT to "whosoever":

2 Cor. 5: 21 - For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, [not only Adam] that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Just like how under the animal sacrifice system the animal was killed in place of the sinner, Jesus offers to bear ALL of our personal sins we have comitted and die in our place. Jesus offers to trade places with us.

From Genesis where God killed animals and provided their skins for a covering to Adam & Eve, to the animal sacrifice system in the OT, to the NT sacrifice of Jesus who was killed in our place - this is the central theme of the bible - a blood covering for us - substitutional atonement for us (not Adam).

So, how does a person get to be "in Jesus"? We must accept the official deal (covenant or contract) offered at Mt. 26: 27-28 "for the forgiveness of sins"

2 Cor. 5:19 ...God was in Christ, ... not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The ministry of reconciliation is what JW's need to hear, not more WT claptrap. But first, they have to know that when they die, their sins ARE NOT WIPED OUT. Only then will the good news mean anything to them.

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Sea Breeze

@Easy Prompt

How can a believer both sin and and not be able to sin at the same time? Doesn't fit WT theology at all does it?

1 John 1: 8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3: 9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

They did you a favor when they disfellowshipped you. Do you have family still in?

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Sea Breeze

Compare these two verses:

1 John 1: 8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3: 9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

One verse says believers sin. A few verses later it says believers cannot sin. So which is it?

Do you think it is possible that one verse is talking about your body, and the other verse is talking about a born again believers' new spirit - both of which are "you", individually and/or collectively?

If not, please explain how a believer can both sin and "cannot sin" at the same time.

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Sea Breeze

@Easy Prompt

You have been indoctrinated in a bible cult for decades. Before that you grew up in an atheist home. This is why I challenge you. We are supposed to "make sure of all things".

I'm curious how you would reconcile these two verses from the same writer:

1 John 1: 8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 5: 18 - We know that whoever is born of God does not sin

Here's the rest of the verse:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Inserting the word "practice" doesn't help at all. Scripture is plain:

Born Again Christians cannot sin. Yet, just a few verses before, scripture says that we are a liar if we say we don't sin.

So, which is it? Does a NT believer sin or not? How do you get this to add up using your WT training?

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Sea Breeze

@ Easy Prompt

Here's the problem that you have - If Jesus has the highest name in the universe like scripture says, then why would he subject himself to the Father who has a lesser name? WT theology can't really account for that can it? Christian theology perfectly accomodates this however. I think you know how, you are just not ready to accept it yet.

I'm curious how you would reconcile these two verses from the same writer:

1 John 1: 8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 5: 18 - We know that whoever is born of God does not sin

How can both of these verses be true?

Christian theology perfectly accomodates both of these scriptures by the way. How do you reconcile them?

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Sea Breeze

I'm curious, how do you reconcile the verse "he is greater than I" with the verse that says that the name of Jesus "is above every name" ?

Do you believe both verses are true?

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Sea Breeze

@EasyPrompt

Isn't it interesting that no where in the New Testament (which is the ONLY governing textbook for Christians) does it say we are supposed to be witnesses of Jehovah?

A change occured, a new dispensation of the grace of God happened after Calvary:

Heb. 1 - God, who at various times and in diverse ways spoke long ago to the fathers through the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son

@SeaBreeze, now I am curious, do you not believe Jesus' words that the Father is greater than he is? I am sure you must believe.

Of course. Why would you doubt that?

I'm curious, how do you reconcile the verse "he is greater than I" with the verse that says that the name of Jesus is above every name?

34

2023-August-S-147-Announcements And Reminders!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

page 1. https://imgbox.com/32tnfnel.

page 2. https://imgbox.com/f8jh7e0m .

page 3. https://imgbox.com/chjmr4km .

Sea Breeze

could there come a time when the Kingdom Halls are all sold, and the JWs are renting halls off other groups

That's a great idea! May I suggest that they could make a deal with the 7th Day Adventists to share their facilities on Sunday, since they only use them on Saturday?